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With over 13 years of experience in various courts, including high courts NGT and Supreme Court as well. What were the personal experiences that may have influenced your decision to build your career in the legal fraternity and how was the path? How did you intend to follow it and how have you built your practice around it?
My journey in the field of law honestly started purely by chance. I was never supposed to be in the field of law, but it happened purely by chance. And as soon as I got into it, I started developing interest. In fact, I would say I’m more a product of reverse engineering than anything else, where my interest developed as I started working in the field. I predominantly come from a business family and as every person born in the business family, your first inclination is towards the family business. But as I started working in the field of law, as I started interning and thereafter, once I graduated and I started working with some law firms and some senior lawyers, it set out this kind of a feeling in me that I could work in this field and I could succeed in it. And it also enabled me to create my own niche, to create my own identity. And the rest is, as they say, is history.
You have also done MSc in management from Bradford University. What was the motivation behind doing this degree after law? And how has management degree or management education helped you in not only running your law firm, but actually working in the business operations field?
Because usually we have hardly seen lawyers doing management degrees. So how has it turned out for you?
As I came from a business family, I needed something to fall back upon because, you know, I joined the five year law course. So, obviously I had no knowledge about our business administration per se, apart from the practical side of things, which I saw how my family business was being run. So I believed that I needed some backup. Just in case my legal career doesn’t take off, I should have something to fall back upon. But, to be honest, my decision to do an MSc in management, and especially from the UK has reaped amazing rewards for me in my legal field, simply because, you know, when you are into corporate advisory or you work closely with companies.
A lot of times as lawyers, it is very difficult to understand the mindset behind doing business. And you normally would only look at the business or you would look at the company from the purview of what the statute says or what the law says. What the MSc basically helped me do is to differentiate and understand the business of my clients better. And, hence the advice that I would give them was more in terms of enabling them or rather giving them a better footing for them to do their business and to also help them create a more solid foundation while doing business. As lawyers, a lot of times we tend to be a little pessimistic towards things that’s an occupational hazard I would say.
That being said, if you are able to understand your client and your client’s requirements, especially somebody who has either got a startup or is well established entity, you are able to guide them in the proper manner and basically just enable the law to become more like a safety net for them rather than being an impediment. So, that’s how the MSc has really helped me.
Sir, before starting your career you have worked with several advocates, senior advocates as well. How was that journey helpful in shaping your career as well as if you could share some key learning experiences from the time when you were practicing with them, learning the nuances of the trades. Also, before you started your own practice, how did you make up your mind? Or how did you decide that now I can go independent?
I started interning with a senior lawyer here in Pune and what he helped me understand is that when you’re in practice, every little task that is given to you is of great importance. As I always tell even my juniors who work with me, my first task was, for the first maybe two or three months, not only stapling the notices, but also how the staple should be done, and how the letter should be folded. These are little little things. Then when it comes to the aspects of court, a lot of times you have to make applications which are handwritten. How the paper needs to be folded, how those decreases need to be done. All these little, little things were taught to me. So, law requires a lot of patience and I was lucky that I had mentors like the seniors that I had, who basically enabled me to understand the final nuances of law. See, when you are practicing, especially in the field of litigation, you come across various aspects. Simple things like, you are in court, you need to file a particular bunch of applications or a bunch of documents. They have to be threaded or you have to drive that thread through the top corner of how do you do that?
How do you go about it? A lot of times, you know, you’re privileged if you have a clerk with you, but if you don’t, how do you fend for yourself? And these smaller nuances helped me a lot. Even today if you leave me alone in my office, I can still operate on my own without anybody’s help. So, learning all these final nuances. Then came the aspect of the art of advocacy, how to present yourself in court. One of my seniors would often tell me this, that lawyers are like stage actors. The courtroom is your stage and everything that you do is noticed. Every word that you speak, everything that you cite, it gets you your attention.
Ensure that you’re well prepared with what you’re doing. You know what you’re saying. You can’t just go blabbering what you want over there. So even simple things like the way you would appear in court or your entire getup, whether you’re well taken care of. How your coat is, how your band is, if your shoes are polished or not. For men, if you’ve shaved or not, these are little, little things that even matter because at the end of the day, you’re creating an impression.
You’re creating an impression in the eyes of the judge, you’re creating an impression with the opposite side lawyer, and you’re creating an impression, not just with your client, but also with the other members of the fraternity. So, learning these little, little things is very important. I see a lot of times, the newer generation does not have the patience, they want to get from point A to point B in a jiffy. So law doesn’t work like that. It’s a process. You have to experience every element of that process. And if you are able to enjoy that process, the field of law really ensures that you’re well taken care of. If you start getting impatient, you will realize that a lot of people leave the field of law or they get into things like corporate practice or they get into things like joining some company. Litigation is tough, but it’s fun. And you have to enjoy it. You have to enjoy being in the court. You have to enjoy every moment of being in court. Just as is when it comes to non litigation practice. It also requires a lot of patience because you are restricted to your office. You have to understand what your client requires.
You have to understand how the market is behaving. You have to understand the field in which your client is currently operating. How does that field operate? What are the global ramifications of what you’re doing? So you have to understand all these nuances while applying the various facets of law to a particular document. You have to be well aware about everything around you. See you learn from every person that you meet. So it’s not just your seniors. I think I’ve learned a little bit from everybody that I’ve either seen in court or I have come across during my entire 13, 14 year journey. But yeah, my seniors have played a massive role in shaping me as to where I am today. And I credit them for that.
What was the inspiration behind establishing Regulus Advocates & Consultants after years and years of practice, what factors actually influenced you or your decision to start your own practice? And how was it that you built the resources for the same?
When I decided to go independent, it was a very tough decision because what happens is when you’re working with a senior, you’re living a life in a cocoon. Even if you make a little mistake, you know that you have somebody who’s covering up for you.
You know that a little here and there is fine because your senior is going to take care of it. But when you’re breaking out on your own, you are the whole and soul of whatever you’re doing. You’re responsible for every action that either you or your juniors are doing. So that being said. A lot of people find it tough going independent one is predominantly because, especially if you’re in the field of litigation, that work comes in slowly, and the gratification for that work comes in even later.
So a lot of times, you will have lawyers who work for minuscule fees just so that they can get to work, but that doesn’t mean that it keeps their cash flows going. And a lot of times it’s like working at a loss, but you do it for the experience. Going independent is like diving into the deep ocean. The moment you feel that, yes, you’re well equipped intellectually and with a little bit of experience to back you up, that’s the time you should start thinking of going independent. And so far as starting Regulus was concerned. I am a strong believer in the fact that consolidation is very important.
If you can bring various people together and work as one unit, it helps serve the purpose better than working as a lone wolf. You can’t behave like an individualistic person, when it comes to this, you have to think that collectively what you can offer to people. And that is what Regulus is all about.
We basically believe in providing a one stop shop solution for all our clients. So a lot of times we have clients who come to us with a particular legal requirement. And during the course of handling that client. The client itself realizes, Oh, I have another issue that needs to be taken care of. Now, they need not go out to any other lawyer because they know that my office is well equipped to take care of that. So that is what was the thought process behind starting Regulus. And, we’ve been able to do that to a large extent, I would say we’ve been able to do that. Where we helped clients in various walks of life, whether they’re individual clients or whether they’re companies.
So we’ve really been able to help them, secure them, and that’s how we want to keep working. So even whether it’s me or whether it’s my partner, our singular focus is to ensure that we don’t treat law like a business, but we treat law as something that we are passionate about. And through that passion is what we generate business. So it doesn’t work the other way around.
You have been involved in many cases at the Supreme Court as well. If you will be able to share or shed some light on the particular airline ticket refund case which has had bigger implications, what strategies did you follow or how was it that you planned and you had that particular favorable outcome for yourself and your client obviously? Also, how has your management degree helped you in building that particular strategy over here in this particular case?
To be very honest, I was the second lead on the matter. I was not leading the case. This case predominantly was happening during the lockdown and post lockdown scenario during Covid, it was in 2020 when the government had basically put a stop on all air travel. And when that happened, you had a lot of people who were either passengers or travel agents, facing tremendous losses because they had paid for their tickets for the travel during those months when the airlines had stopped operations and they were unable to get their money back.
And there was a notification by the central government saying how the money will be returned back to the passengers and things like that. Now, there was a petition that was filed by one organization. In the Supreme Court. I happened to be representing a travel agents association and it was tasked upon me to see whether we could intervene in this particular case.
I was lucky that I had the guidance and support of a very senior lawyer in Delhi. Who today is a sitting judge of the Bombay High Court, Dr.Neela Gokhale who was basically engaged by us to lead the entire matter. Now, interestingly, what happened was there were two other senior lawyers who were representing other organizations and then the airlines came all guns blazing with creme de la creme of the legal field where you had people like Hari Salve, Arvind Dada, Mukul Rohatgi and you know, the works. And you obviously had the Solicitor General also appearing for the Union of India.
Honestly, for me, that was extremely intimidating because I had never appeared in the matter where you had such a star studded opposition and people who I have looked up to in this field. So, it so happened that on the day of the arguments, Dr.Neela Gokhale’s mic couldn’t work and that was the only opportunity we were given for arguments. And it was absolutely magnanimous on her part where she said, look, you know, the case, just go ahead and argue. And I argued and I was plain lucky that the bench of the Supreme Court heard me out in detail. And see what happened was till date, till that case, The element, or rather, who is a travel agent was never really explained to any other court. But travel agents were always treated like a middleman or a dalal, as you would say.
But I basically went forward and explained the role of a travel agent and how that entire thing worked which struck a chord somewhere. And when the judgment came, the court basically put down all the suggestions and all the points that I had argued as a part of the judgment, which was tremendous. I mean, for me, that was incredible because the court mentioned my name in that, that because I have stated.
So it was a wonderful experience. And, I would say it’s a feather in my cap because it ended up being a reported judgment, and which was the only reported judgment right now that I have to do my entire work.
Over the years of your experience, how have you seen the legal landscape change and take shape, especially when it comes to corporate advisory or tech law or all these fields which are very emerging ones and how have you worked around your own role and how do you think all these technologies are going to play any role in future of your legal practice and of others, keeping in mind the way it is changing?
I would say that you have to look at law or rather any field for that matter in a pre COVID vis a vis a post COVID scenario, because what the pandemic really did was it changed the landscape of how work is done across the world.
Now, if you were looking at a pre COVID scenario, this interview would be happening face to face. I don’t think any of us were even aware about a platform called Zoom or Webex or any of that nature till before the pandemic came into play. I mean, I remember only using platforms like Skype. I was completely unaware about things like Zoom till the pandemic really came about.
And in the legal field, what it did was, It brought about a sizable revolution in so far as how the courts function. So a lot of the courts, like the High courts and the Supreme courts, the NCLT or the NGT for that matter are going virtual. I remember during that time we would appear in the NCLT in various matters.
And we would be appearing in various cities. So I would be sitting in my office in Pune, appearing in the morning, maybe in Mumbai, in the afternoon session, maybe in a place like Ahmedabad or Delhi. So what they did was that enabled people like me sitting in places like Pune to appear across India.
Even that Supreme Court case that I could handle, it was a virtual case, all the councils were appearing virtually. So what they did was it brought about a revolutionary change. Also, it brought about something which is known as e-Filing. Like all documents which are filed in the court are e-Filed today. Where in the past we would, you know, go and submit everything in the court. Now, it is all uploaded onto a platform and it is submitted there. So what happens is, it brings in technology to a large extent and it helps various people from various walks of life to also be involved in this field.
Now in the state of Maharashtra, you have the Bombay High Court, which is located in three places. You have it in Mumbai, you have it in Aurangabad, in Nagpur and then you have also one in Goa. But let’s keep Goa aside for the moment, we look at these three places. Now, each of these three benches have certain districts which have their jurisdiction to the Bombay High Court.
A lot of these people who are from these districts which are far away from Mumbai or from Aurangabad or from Nagpur have to travel every time to the respective places to attend the matters. Today, what happens is I’m able to sit in Pune, or the lawyer is able to sit in a place like Kolhapur or in Solapur, attend the matter in Mumbai virtually, without having the trouble of traveling all the way there.
So it is less time consuming, it is more productive. And it also enables a person who’s sitting in a remote place to have the experience of appearing before the High court. So, what technology has done is, it’s broken down the entire monopoly of certain lawyers in certain places that If it is a matter in the High court, only those lawyers will handle it.
That’s not the case anymore. So technology is making way for the Superb revolution in the field of law. You’re seeing it even in business and it is also bringing about a lot of complications with it. It has its advantages. It also has its disadvantages. You’re seeing cybercrime, you’re seeing all these things happen.
But that is also enabling a new generation of lawyers to come into play who are focusing more on these activities. We had the Information Technology Act, which was passed way back in the year 2011 2012, or even before that. But the actual implementation is actually happening now. In a post COVID scenario, you are seeing cybercrime, you’re seeing scams happening over using information technology, you’re seeing all these things happen.
And law is playing a huge role in that lawyers are playing a huge role in helping agencies understand how to work on it. Till about three, four years ago, you would not have any lawyers in India understanding what the GDPR guidelines were. But now you have a lot of lawyers who are understanding that, taking courses in that, and working in that field, advising companies on those fronts.
So, the post pandemic scenario has been, I think, great for the field of law. Yes, for the older generation, it has been quite a setback because they’ve had to unlearn a lot of things and relearn a lot of things, but it has helped them to a large extent as well because they have engaged juniors who understand the usage of technology. But for the newer generation, it’s become like a cakewalk.
There are skepticisms that there are chances that AI will take over all the work, we will not be left with much of the work. How do you see that particular fear and how would you like to suggest some ways of overcoming that fear and making sure that even if technology is coming in head on, still we have better chances of not only surviving, but thriving in those practices?
The way technology is an advantage, it’s bringing its disadvantages hand in hand. Now, you have a lot of the newer generation of lawyers or this newer generation of clients who come to you with solutions that they find on platforms like chatGPT. Now, even if you put an input on Chat GPT that drafts me an entire petition, it does that for you in a matter of seconds. You tell it, give me a case law on a particular subject. It gives you about 5, 10 case laws on a particular subject. But the problem lies in how much reliance do you base on it?
See finally, you can use these tools as mere reference points rather than being your primary source of information, they can be used as enablers of making your work simpler than being used as a primary source of drafting or creating a document. And unfortunately, I’m seeing a lot of people doing that. I’m seeing a lot of people using it in a manner in which they’re so reliant on that platform, on AI, which is not the best thing to do. For a simple reason is because the AI is also still learning.
It is, I would say, still at an infancy stage, it is also learning, it will take its time for it to understand what inputs and what it’s supposed to really give out as an output. But that does not take away from the fact that as a lawyer, your primary source of information has to be the books of law.
It has to be the statutes that are there available, and they have to be the commentaries and the various precedents set out by the various courts in the country. Yes, it is going to create a scenario where future generations of lawyers may have to face certain hardships. But I always say this, that when you look at it not as a problem, but you look at it as an opportunity. It also brings about various elements of opportunities to do different types of work. And you should use AI to work on a global stage then. You have to then aim higher and AI is only there to enable that for you. If you can do it, that’s the best, you should.
You actually juggle in your legal practice, then your firm management, then also with your social contribution with Drishaan Charitable Trust. How do you actually prioritize your responsibilities? How do you have that work life balance? And how do you make time for yourself? How do you make sure that you are in absolute perfect shape for your practice for yourself as well?
So far as my philanthropic work is concerned, that is something that I started about 15 odd years ago. So even before I got into the field of practice of law, I had started my organization and we’ve done a lot of work since then. Obviously, prior to me getting into the field of law, the amount of attention and work I could do in the field was much greater than what I can do today.
But that being said, our primary focus today is to ensure that we are able to provide financial assistance to anybody, any underprivileged child out there. Whether he or she requires medical aid or whether he or she requires educational help. So we are working towards that.
We’ve helped a lot of kids. In fact, just a couple of days ago, we conducted a massive eye camp just on the outskirts of Pune with the assistance of another organization, where we treated close to about, 4 and a 1/2, 5, 000 people, students, basically from the underprivileged backgrounds. And we did free eye checkups and we gave glasses off to whoever required it. So, this is something that we do. The reason we keep doing this or rather I keep doing this is basically it helps me have a different perspective about how the world is. That’s number one.
Number two, it also enables me to get my mind off the regular work kind of things. And, it is extremely satisfying. As I always say to my friends that you know, it is something that gives me a massive kick and I do it for that. But when you talk about things like mental health, a lot is said about it these days.
I think my generation or the generation before that were not really so bothered about our mental health and things like that, because we were made to grind our teeth to the very core and because we were made to work extremely hard, you know, there was nothing like saying no to any task.
So because of that, this element of feeling entitled to a particular thing never really arose for us. I feel a lot of the newer generation of the students that I see are always in this entitlement trap and because they feel that they are entitled to a particular thing and when they don’t get it, it starts putting a mental pressure on them.
Yes, there are a lot of people out there who work in some toxic places where they’re made to work, where the remunerations are not as good and the entire environment is not really good. Yes, in such places, there are cases of mental breakdowns, but at the same time, what the field of law really does is if you really grinded your teeth well enough, it toughens you out. And it helps you take on the world like no other profession can because see what happens, especially if you’re in litigation, you learn the art of talking to the lowest person in the court to the highest person who is the judge.
If you have to get your work done, how do you convince the lowest person in that, from say the person who calls out the case to the bench clerk, to anybody else, how do you work around it? That’s also an art. And it teaches you this, it enables you to learn these things. So people understand, human resource understanding is something that gives you a lot of insight.
All that is not that easy as well the way you were saying that even people do understand that we have to work hard but sometimes the work itself takes a different kind of toll. Don’t you think?
Yes, But to these people I’ll always say that you need to have a hobby that you can pursue, whether it is music, whether it is sport, anything else.
I mean, there are people who just like to take maybe a Sunday off and just go drive somewhere or cycle somewhere or take the motorcycles and go somewhere. You need that little bit of me time that you need to give yourself. And that is quite a lot to rejuvenate your mind and body. And it is important that you stay away from unnecessary vices.
I’m not saying you should not have a vice, but you stay away from the unnecessary ones. So, that will also help you keep your mind alert and be focused. Like, you know, I have a simple rule that if I’m going to be socializing over the weekday, I will ensure that I will never have any alcoholic beverages. It’s a rule because it can unnecessarily tamper with your mind. So you need a little bit of self discipline as well. And that nobody else can do for you that only that individual can do for himself.
What kind of key skills or mindsets that you emphasize while you are mentoring the young law students or your interns or your juniors and what kind of advice do you give them in order to make sure that it helps them stand out in the kind of competitive environment and the legal market that we are currently in?
The most important aspect for any young lawyer or any lawyer, I would say, young or old, new or experienced is the ability or the thing that you have to read, if you are averse to reading, then you’re not meant for this field. So even whether it means, reading the statute, whether it is reading the case law or whether it is reading your case file, a young lawyer or any lawyer has to have the ability to read . The second thing is reading between the lines is very important. So a lot of times you’ll come across documents which are running through thousands of pages. But how to have a quick read, how to read in a jiffy yet grasp and understand what is said in there so that you can give your inputs on it and give your advice on it in the proper manner.
That is most important. Another skill that I always emphasize upon is the use of technology. So, basic things like how to use your Microsoft Words or Excels or PowerPoint presentations, these are very important. Your command of the English language, especially if you want to practice in the higher courts is very important. In fact when you’re practicing in law, you need to have command all the languages that you either speak, but having knowledge and command over English is very important because if you get an opportunity, especially if you’re practicing in the lower courts and you get an opportunity to practice or conduct a matter before the High court or the Supreme court, you should have the to speak over there.
That also goes for, if you get a job or an opportunity to work with a law firm, and you’re going to be drafting contracts, your contracts are going to be in English. And therefore your command over that language is very important. That being said, the command over your native language is also important, because when you practice in the lower courts, which is the trial courts, A lot of times you will use your native language, which is like in Maharashtra, you’ll use Marathi or up North, you’ll use Hindi, down south, you’ll use any of those four or five languages that they speak there.
But if you’re going to be living in those places and practicing in those areas, you need to know the language there for sure. So that is another skill set that is very important and the most important aspect of it all is the, I won’t say the ability, but rather the desire to work hard. So if you can work hard, you can definitely excel in this profession.
While reading about you and the kind of work which Drishaan has done. How did you pick up that you have to work in the eye department because you started with Drishaan Charitable Trust in order to make sure that you work for not only students, but also those who need help with the eye and it’s not very easy for a non doctor to organize such big camps. How did you do that?
You don’t need to be a doctor or you don’t need to be equipped with that particular skillset to do that kind of work, to be very honest. I was all of 18 years old when I started doing this work, and it started off by me, to be very honest, using the money that I had collected during my 18th birthday, and I decided that I will utilize it to help one child get their eyesight back.
How I came to work on the aspect of the blind is predominantly because the college that I was studying in at that time would have these blind students there, and I would often see their struggle. So I said that if I can help one, maybe I can help start something with that. What happened was, when I did that particular activity, and I did it purely for myself, I didn’t do it for publicity, I didn’t do it for anybody’s attention.
It so happened at the hospital that I helped this child get operated in and things like that, they informed the local newspaper and that newspaper kept asking me to do an interview, which I rejected for a very long time until the editor in chief himself gave me a call one day and said that, look, I would like to speak to you regarding what you’ve done.
And it so happened that by then my next birthday had come up, I’d again helped another child. So they said, look, you want to know who you are and what you’re doing. So I went there for a regular chat. And I just spoke about what I’m doing and why I’m doing what I’m doing. Interestingly, without me knowing, he actually wrote an entire editorial about me in the local newspaper and that paper got circulated in various parts of Maharashtra and it created a position for me where I had people from across the state of Maharashtra coming to see me.
And meet with me and basically contribute to what I was doing. And that basically laid the foundations for Drishaan because by then I’d collected so much money from so many people that I could not obviously retain that money for myself. So then I formed a trust and through that trust since 2010, we’ve restored the eyesight of over 150, 175 odd kids till date. We’ve conducted various eye camps.
So what happened was we started working in this field and we realized that there is a disease called rubella. So, I started doing my own research on this. And then I started understanding that there is nobody who’s really working towards this. And it so happened that I realized that there’s no immunization program for it as well.
So I started writing to the government and I was writing to various authorities saying that they should start immunization programs. So that we can eradicate this disease out of India. Interestingly, in 2014, when the present dispensation came into power, I happened to write to the Honorable Prime Minister and in about three, four months, I got a response from the Ministry of Health saying that whatever I have stated out is being forwarded to the nursery departments and they are working on an immunization program.
So, that was extremely satisfying. And since then, because I also got busy with my work and things like that. My fieldwork reduced and my focus changed toward more of, helping kids or rather the underprivileged kids by way of financial help. So in order to do that we conduct small little programs where they’re more like fundraisers and things like that.
And it also creates awareness amongst people. And my logic behind it is simple, so in Hindi, as we say, “sirf drishti nahi drishtikon dena hai” That’s how we are doing it. So, what we are doing is, we are working with the underprivileged children, on one side, and at the second side, we are also now, we started a new program, where we’re calling various thought leaders to come and speak on certain subjects, because we want to change and imbibe the feeling of nationalism and patriotism in the youth.
So we are working on that as well now, slowly. So we recently did a program in the month of March or April, where we had various speakers come and speak on the subject of Savarkar. So we’re going to organize more programs in the future to speak about various other people and basically instill a sense of nationalism and patriotism in the youth.
What that also does is that also inspires them to carry on the work that I’m also doing because finally what we are doing is helping the children of the nation. And we are creating them for tomorrow.
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